Talking Shop Wednesday, May 06, 2009 In an effort to deliver you a true temperature of the market, we assembled a sit-down roundtable in New York last month. We asked the same questions you would: Where are we? What’s on your minds? What’s keeping you up at night? How can we service clients amid a changing industry? Budgets? What friggin’ budgets? The participants represented a broad mix of designers, builders, and creators of events, exhibits, and environments. And although they may have had varying opinions on the state of experience design, one thing was clear: The world has changed, and only those designers that change with it will emerge stronger and better. Take a look through our first Event Design roundtable of the year—moderated by ED associate editor Patrick Gorman and sponsored by leading fabric structure provider Pink Inc.—for a little advice, a few tips, and some sound words to take to heart. PATRICK GORMAN: OK folks, let’s do this. Who are ya and what’s up? KAREN CARNEY: I am the owner and principal designer of Art of Area Design in New Jersey. We do everything from museum design to trade show exhibits and corporate installations. The big thing that’s keeping me up right now is not lack of work. It’s lack of pay. People are taking forever to pay. I’ve seen a trend among clients who want to use a system. That’s very big. But they don’t want it to look like a system. That’s where we have to be more creative. I’ve also found that when I do a new proposal, I need to spend a lot more time in the analytical phase of that proposal. I think theme-driven designs are going to have a lot more impact than just plain form studies, and that’s difficult when you’re dealing with a modular system and have tighter parameters. CHUCK SANTORO: I’m senior creative director at TBA Global. I run creative for the East Coast. Most of our work in the New York office is large-scale b-to-b meetings. We do some consumer events as well, but it’s mostly b-to-b meetings. Last year, they ranged from 150 people to 17,000. We cross sectors—pharmaceutical, technology, telecommunications, fragrance, and retail, which is a big part of what we do. Our green initiative is very important for TBA and a lot of our clients. Things that keep me up? Clients with budgets that are less, but asking for more. And how can you still deliver value when you’re having a return audience, which a lot of our shows have. How do we go to the next level? That’s kind of challenging for the creative department. What will wow the clients, as well as wow the audience? MIKE ELLERY: I’m the senior creative director at Sparks, based in Philadelphia. I’m responsible for the East Coast [including] our Detroit creative team. We are a full-service event marketing agency. We do everything from trade shows to events and a lot of custom retail work. The things that are troubling me at the moment are returning value to our clients, and being able to give them the tools they need to answer that call they get from up high asking, “How much return on investment did we get, and how are we going to make this better?” So we’re trying to provide our clients with tools they can use, and the research and analysis to back it up. We have a very broad product offering, so we’re trying to look at ways we can implement [eco-friendly measures] each step of the way and come up with some standards throughout the company. We’ve done a lot of research over the last 12 months, and we’re trying to work out the best path for projects through our production facilities, to make sure that we’re doing as much as we possibly can over such a broad spectrum of projects.   ERIK ULFERS: I’m the owner of Clickspring Design in New York. We are a consumer marketing group. We have a specialty in what I call “news and booze.” We are the agency of record for CNN. We [also] have pulled our company into a destination marketing practice, which looks at a formidable matrix of experience and how it pulls together physical properties, virtual properties, out-of-home, and consumer advertising. So we’ve started to look at experiential design as a much broader, integrated practice, as opposed to an isolated event. If I look at what’s happening in the marketplace really pragmatically, I see our clients suffering. Our clients are typically marketing executives who are trying to balance marketing budgets. And they’re getting edicts from top leadership saying, “You have to cut 30 or 40 percent out of your marketing budget… and keep our sales up.” So they’re looking to us to provide a strong strategy that will ultimately impact their bottom line. So the onus now is on us in a much bigger way. I think that the world of intuitive design—you know, “I like red so you should”—is totally dead. We’ve found that our up-front research and analytics related to rationalizing process—and, ultimately, product—is much more in-depth. CHUCK SANTORO: And that wasn’t around before. It’s amazing. Even in the last few years, the whole idea of strategy in the up-front—it’s key. ERIK ULFERS: And to be honest, I think it’s more interesting. I think it’s enormously easier to stand up in front of a client and, instead of saying, “Here are the windows and here are the doors and we painted it red because it’s pretty” … I just think it’s more interesting to be able to tell them why. STEVE PASCAL: I’m the director of creative strategy at Access TCA. We have three locations: Boston, Atlanta, and Las Vegas. Access has been around for 22 years; we are a traditional design-and-build company. What we’re finding is that as the marketing budgets are being cut, the marketing directors need to justify those dollars. And that ROI is so critical. We try to get upstream as much as possible into the marketing plans, to understand their sales approach, their sales proposition. At the end of the day, we’re really creating selling environments. And so to understand how to measure success of an exhibit, you have to figure out what they’re trying to achieve. What would you consider a successful program? Is it building awareness, knowledge? Where are you on that curve: trial, purchase? What do you want to achieve? So all of that research up front goes into building a better solution, because you’re really defining the problem to solve. That’s something they can take up the chain. We’re really speaking their language. I try to vet the creative process through the client’s eyes. You know, I’m not going to get hung up on the materials and structure. I want to know what the experience is and how we’re going to get there. And, of course, always balancing the budget. We’re also seeing our clients using us as a bank. They’re holding out on payments and creative financing arrangements, and things like that. PATRICK GORMAN: How do you protect the value of design in an economy like this? Are there ways to cut budget without cutting the power of the design? ERIK ULFERS: Do we think we’ve lost five to 10 years of ground in terms of the value-add of design? I don’t think so. I don’t think that’s going to go away, not just as a strategic product but as a strategic process for our clients. The interesting thing we’re finding is that a lot of work, especially as it dimensions in 3D, is pushed into a client’s capital budget. So our capital budgets have not declined yet. But they’ve started to extend, so we’re obliged to look at multiple phases of a project rather than a design-direct build. However, I think that as clients are letting go of their employees, they’re finding themselves more unable to think for themselves. So there’s value to [clients] in having an organization that can help them think through objectives and, ultimately, solutions. They’re still willing to pay for the brainpower. MIKE ELLERY: Managing the budget is a part of any creative process. Whether they’ve got $50,000 or $5 million, getting the most out of that budget is the sign of a good creative team. And that comes from the overall concept, whether you’re just maximizing a single idea and spending all your money on that one element, all the way through to creative input into production techniques—working with the production team to make sure they’re not building things the traditional way, but they’re being a little bit smarter about how they do it, where they spend the money, and cutting down the labor it takes to put it together. The role of design is a lot broader now than just painting a pretty picture and selling it to a client. We’re more involved in all parts of the business, as far as… understanding what happens when it gets to the show floor. Creative still has a lot to offer, and maximizing the impact for that budget is what a good creative team’s all about. I think, if anything, we will be more important in the future. What we’re finding is that clients are coming to us and saying, “Here’s the budget; sort it out for me. Do everything from the strategy through to the measurement and the structure and the show services.” They don’t have the experience or the skills, and there’s no one else there who does. So we need to be more of a strategic partner than just a vendor. CHUCK SANTORO: We’re also getting the smaller projects that could turn big—the events they used to handle internally—now they’re talking [to us] about that smaller projects, which gives us more insight into the brand. [That helps us] when we get that RFP for the larger project. If I could ask a client anything, it would be to talk about the year rather than an RFP for a one-off. One main reason is that we would have that insight for when we do pitch that big show. MIKE ELLERY: It helps so much, too, that messaging, brand identity, and all of those things that make up a good brand experience can be more controlled by the creative teams, so we can make sure there’s consistency from pre-show to post-show. CHUCK SANTORO: The greatest thing was when [a client] asked me to direct another vendor recently. I was like, “Yes!” So I had these print vendors calling me [for approvals], which wouldn’t have happened a few years ago, but [the client doesn’t] have that person on staff anymore. They wanted to make sure that print piece was in line with our creative for the event. A year or so ago, it would have been the other way around. STEVE PASCAL: To pick up on that idea, it’s funny that our capabilities pitch used to be, “Here are all the things we do, and here’s our location,” and all of that. But one word has really come to the surface in our creative pitches: trust. And as the clients’ budgets and staff have been cut, we’re trying to build our service offering around what they need. PATRICK GORMAN: Let’s talk fabrication. When it comes to actually bringing your designs to life, how is that side of the business changing? MIKE ELLERY: We’re having to get smarter. We’re having to look at ways of automating as many processes as we can. On any build we’re doing, 70 to 75 percent of our cost is labor. So we’re doing anything we can do to make their lives more efficient.   KAREN CARNEY: Last year, I felt like a lot of companies were green-washing: “Oh, let’s jump on the green bandwagon, yippee.” And now, if a client requests green, they’re not going to fall for a green-washing. They are seriously green, and this is what they want. And they’ll be willing to put out the money. Some people will go to the grocery store and pay that extra 15 or 20 percent for organic food because it’s important for them. It’s the same thing with exhibits. You’ll have a lot of companies that will want it. One of the things I try to stress with designers is that you can design a green booth. It doesn’t have to cost you more. And it doesn’t have to look like bamboo and granola. We can have a green consciousness without… MIKE ELLERY: … without being so overt all the time. KAREN CARNEY: Exactly. And that’s up to the designer. There are some clients that couldn’t care less about green. They’re going to say, “I only have $50,000 to spend on a 20-by-20, and what can you do for me?” Well, we don’t have to do the bamboo flooring, but we can specify recycled carpet. And that’s not going to cost more. So I think it’s just something that people are going to have to ease into, and it will become a normal way of life. And it won’t be used anymore as a marketing tool, which I’m kind of glad about. A lot of companies would hire me to come in and give them my green material report and tell them how they can be green, and then tell me afterward that they didn’t believe in it [going green]; they were only doing it as a show to their clients. ERIK ULFERS: A lot of clients are unwilling to add the 15 to 20 percent [more for green exhibits]. They feel like it’s going to compromise the solution. KAREN CARNEY: I don’t feel going green should ever compromise your marketing message. Our challenge as designers is how can we give them the marketing message they want and be green? MIKE ELLERY: A year ago, every RFP had a green section, then it kind of went away, and now it’s back. STEVE PASCAL: I’ve only been with Access for about two and a half years, and I thought I was going to get run out of town last year when I said, “You know, it’s really shifting more to the experience over the structure.” KAREN CARNEY: The experience doesn’t have so much to do with size. I still have clients that go with huge booths. And that’s cool, especially if they have a budget. But I’ve always believed that an exhibit should be about experience and drama. It’s theater. And I’m hoping with having budgets cut, more designers get more into the whole drama of it and make it more exciting, so it justifies why clients need us. CHUCK SANTORO: Green has been so important. For one [recent event], even though we didn’t have the next show for that client, we designed [an exhibit] in hopes of scaling it down for recycling. In hindsight, the client told us that was one of the things that helped us, because we talked about that green initiative. That really resonates; it’s not just lip-service. In this time when you can’t always use materials because of the cost, what can you do to reuse? STEVE PASCAL: So they’re really seeing the benefit of this partnership and that trust in you. CHUCK SANTORO: So much so that they mentioned it onstage, because they wanted the audience to know. [They announced that] pieces of this set were reused from the last show. They wanted the audience to know. Other than materials, there are ways to look at it. MIKE ELLERY: There’s also the process. As it travels around the country, as it’s stored, as it’s handled, how can we look at that? Green materials are fantastic, but when you look at the overall budget of these programs, the manufacturing is such a small slice of that over a three-year program, that there are so many other areas where we should be focusing our attention. But one of the things that we’re seeing is that the key differentiator between what we do and every other marketing activity is that we’re face-to-face. So how do we embrace that? How do we make sure that the staff manning the exhibit are trained to make sure that face-to-face interaction is a quality interaction that actually means something? Because having a huge presence is one thing, but what actually happens when they get to that huge presence, and what makes that experience personal to them? STEVE PASCAL: That’s a great, great point. It’s really moving more toward content than aesthetics. What are the quality of the leads? What are the exit interviews showing you? Are sales increasing? It’s going to be a huge learning curve for us. I think traditionally, exhibit designers have placed the media there. And somehow, somebody else was going to fill it with content. But more and more, I think it’s important to know what that content is so that everything in that booth is supporting… MIKE ELLERY: … how it integrates. We’re not just hanging plasma screens on a wall anymore. We actually joke about it: “Let’s get rid of all the exhibit structure. Let’s just build the whole booth out of  LED tiles. The whole booth: the floor, the walls, the ceiling, the whole lot.” We don’t need fabrication.   PATRICK GORMAN: With the rise of virtual events, are you noticing any impact on the way you do business? ERIK ULFERS: We are, certainly. We’re doing a lot of it, which was not typically in our core offerings. For us, it is really about the alignment of multiple engagements. In order to provide value, you’re not just talking about a physical construct—you’re talking about how it ties into a home site, a micro-site, or, some other content. That’s actually part of the value proposition now. I don’t think that any of us has the luxury to be overly specialized. It’s not a business strategy. It’s a client mandate that you figure out how you’re going to start to tie in communication channels to create sustainability and frequency of engagement. CHUCK SANTORO: It’s still about the experience. I think the bottom line is: What is that experience? We’re doing a lot in virtual, and it’s just another offering that we now have. [We’re also handling] regional meetings. So instead of doing one huge meeting, how can we split it up and still create that experience? It’s about what will help the client lower their cost but still move their audience. STEVE PASCAL: We had a client pull out of NAB last year and decide to take their message directly to small [regional] events, from the West Coast across to New York. It was hugely successful, because you’re not 10 feet away from all of your competitors. You can put on the Ritz for them, create an experience, and have a dedicated time [for customers] to demo the product. The client loved it. It was very, very successful for them. CHUCK SANTORO: We just did something [like that] for a major financial institution [going through] a merger. We did town halls. It was another nice way to get the message out. And in these times, you have to say something, because saying nothing will not do anyone any good. The event might be the pinnacle, but what are those other [marketing elements]? We’re doing a lot in employee engagement right now, and thinking about how we are engaging employees throughout the year. Is there something that would go to your home office? Is there a webinar? What are all those pieces that will fill in the gaps? I mean, there are so many different tactics. We’re finding that the end might be that event. But in these times when you don’t have the luxury of face-to-face, what else can you do? And how are you going to communicate your message? MIKE ELLERY: That’s the thing. It’s about trying to close this loop. The event is the epicenter of it, but pre-show and post-show, and all the way through, you’re maintaining that dialogue; you’re building advocacy for your clients. PATRICK GORMAN: Are you selling ideas differently than you were before, now that we’re in challenging times? MIKE ELLERY: I think the strategic element is taking on a lot more importance. So yeah, we are delivering a pretty picture, but we’re also talking about how that fits into their overall marketing plan for the year. Also, we might be asked to do a certain piece of the puzzle for that marketing plan for the year, but we’re asking a lot more questions to figure out how that fits into the bigger picture. And quite often we’re offering solutions to the things they’re not asking us to do, just to show how, by taking this idea, we could really blow it out. We’re kind of trying to educate them on [looking] at this as part of a bigger picture. Some clients are really good at it. Others have multiple divisions all over the place and just don’t get it. So it depends on who your audience is, but we’re trying to bring in the other channels and bring in the 365-days-a-year communication platform to everything we do. STEVE PASCAL: We’ve seen the exact same thing. I think the “what if” has come into play a lot more. We used to present these drop-dead gorgeous renderings, and that’s a good starting point, but they really want to see the thinking. They want to see options. And we’ve got a lot of clients that would rather see multiple works-in-progress. They don’t want to wait a month to decide whether it’s right. As they’re trying to get their house in order, they can’t exactly give us the answers. And we have to give them a set of options that they can help align. This is all wet cement that we’re trying to line up. So how do we tangibly market to them when they don’t know what’s going on next? Flexibility in the options, breaking it down into sort of a more bite-size menu, helps create the dialogue about where to put their marketing dollars. [It takes us] to a creative consultancy level more than just a fabricator or a supplier. ERIK ULFERS: One of our realizations was that we have to be able to say, “I have no preconditions.” There are no pre-conclusions that this is what you should have. I think it’s being agnostic, solutions-wise, which actually creates a lot of interesting dialogue with the clients. In other words, I’m not sure if I agree with the menu [idea]. I actually think that’s compromising the sales situation. I think that what you want to do is look at the potential value of each independent link within an experiential chain. KAREN CARNEY: A lot of times salespeople will say, “We want you to go in; just show them some sketches. Give them sketches and a week, see what they say.” Well, I feel as a designer you’re taking away from the drama of the presentation if you’re giving clients a heads-up. Let them open it up, like a beautiful package, and go, “Ooooh.” Otherwise it’s like at Christmas when you open your packages ahead of time and your parents don’t know, and then there’s no excitement. When I deal with my regular clients, I’ll do that, because they can read line drawings and I have a rapport with them. But when you do an RFP, I find it to be a big mistake [to present works in progress], because you’re taking away the excitement. MIKE ELLERY: We have a saying, “Show them what they want; tell them what they need.” What we’ve been doing more lately is if we’re presenting multiple options, we might do exactly what they’ve asked for as far as the tone, the manner, the structure, the reusability, all that stuff. But if we actually think that’s not the best idea, we will step outside that and do something [else]. Clients have different levels of experience and education, but we see it as our role to share that knowledge with them. But what we’ve been doing for some of our RFPs, is developing the two ideas that we think are the best, but then share with them our working ideas at the end and say, “Here are 10 other concepts we came up with.” Nothing’s built yet; nothing’s been manufactured. These are just lines on paper. KAREN CARNEY: Maybe something will hit. CHUCK SANTORO: But the work’s already been done. MIKE ELLERY: The work’s done. CHUCK SANTORO: They appreciate that. MIKE ELLERY: So we show our work and we show how we worked through the problem. We can say, “Look, we’ve done this work. We might as well share it with you.” CHUCK SANTORO: I did that recently; it went over very well. There was one little piece [on an alternate design]… that they saw and asked,  “Can you just put that in?” And they were excited about that process and hearing about how we went through the strategy. I think they appreciate that, like, “Wow, you thought it out.” KAREN CARNEY: I’m a design consultant, so I deal with a lot of builders, and I deal directly with some clients. My biggest issue with a lot of exhibit houses is they’re so wrapped up in their rendering programs. [But] it’s just a tool. As long as you can do something nice and describe what you want to the client, that’s how you get the job. They have to look at it and go, “Wow, that’s what I had in my head.” That’s what they’re all looking for. And the rendering package isn’t going to give you that. MIKE ELLERY: It’s a double-edged sword. Some clients like to see the “photograph” of what it’s going to look like before it’s built. For other clients, particularly for event work we do, we will do everything hand-sketch. That lets them fill in the blanks and use their imagination, but it also doesn’t tie us down too much to [them saying later], “Well, this widget’s three inches to the left of where it should have been.” KAREN CARNEY: It’s just my opinion, but with RFPs, hand renderings just don’t seem to get there. At the same time, I feel like walk-throughs are a little too much. If I have an extra week in conceptual time, I would rather… analyze the client, and give [them] the best design. And give them some renderings. STEVE PASCAL: The client base is so varied in their educational level and what are they looking for. I think the more educated they are, the looser they can deal. They can get their hands a little dirty. There are a lot of blind RFPs where you’re sending your work in. You don’t even really get to present it, which is deadly. KAREN CARNEY: That’s horrible. I don’t know anyone who has success from just sending in an RFP. Do you think they’re doing it because they’re planning on keeping their incumbent but they want to keep them honest? MIKE ELLERY: I don’t know if that’s always the case. But creative loses some of its power when you don’t have an option to present it. There are very few clients who, with those electronic submissions, lay out the creative and say, “That one.” PATRICK GORMAN: Do you design for existing clients versus prospects any differently? Are you serving your existing clients differently than you’re pitching your new ones in light of the challenges that lie ahead? KAREN CARNEY: I find I try to be just as creative with existing clients, if not more creative, because they’re my bread and butter. CHUCK SANTORO: You can actually be more risky, because you know they trust you. KAREN CARNEY: When I get new clients, or I’m dealing with a new proposal, it’s a little more stressful. You have to add extra steps when you’re dealing with the new clients, because everyone wants things differently. MIKE ELLERY: You have to justify your decisions a lot more to a new client. And you need a lot more backup and reasons for doing things. Existing clients are more likely to do risky, high-end [work]. They have more confidence in your ability to deliver. PATRICK GORMAN: Among your clients, what categories do you see hurting the most, and which ones are still going strong in wanting to produce events and exhibits? STEVE PASCAL: For us, pharma is still very strong, because of the regulations and because the ability for reps to have facetime with doctors has been cut dramatically. So for pharma, it’s very important to have that engagement, and they want to know who these people are, what they’re interested in, what they spent time learning and how to follow up and continue that marketing dialogue. CHUCK SANTORO: But everything in pharma has gotten so much stricter. You’ll be in the middle of a show, and the FDA just didn’t approve something we’re working on, and we just had to stop business. Everything just stopped. STEVE PASCAL: They want us to make sure that we’ve vetted every possible way that [their events] could be perceived or looked at or configured, to see where the holes are. It’s challenging. But they’re still spending money. MIKE ELLERY: A lot of them have cut their sales forces, or are planning to. So the trade-show environment is still very important to them, and the conventions and meetings. KAREN CARNEY: As far as my clients, anything to do with home building or homes now isn’t doing well. But Remington—oh my God, can people in this country buy enough guns right now? It is unbelievable. That category is booming. STEVE PASCAL: You know, we think of it from our own business perspectives and our clients’ business perspectives, but the folks who are going to these shows, they’re also feeling the same. If the attendee levels start to drop, you know... We’ve seen big shows go away. E3 went away. And what is the health of our industry in general? What can exhibit designers continually bring to the party to help build value? If transportation and gasoline costs are just through the roof, corporate travel expenses will be cut, and will other things like webinars and other Web-based media, and these smaller boutique shows, become the norm? KAREN CARNEY: Companies are just not sending a lot of different people to shows. So when you do have an attendee there, they’re going to be more qualified. You’re going to have better, more qualified leads now than you did before. You may have fewer people, but they’ll be better [leads]. CHUCK SANTORO: And sometimes they have to report back to the group that would have gone, so we’re also [thinking about] what materials might help that attendee take it back to their constituents who didn’t get to go. ERIK ULFERS: You know, one thing everybody at one point has mentioned is ROI. Clients are saying, “Shame on you. You’re asking us to spend a lot of dough on these programs, but you can’t provide us with adequate measurement.” So the stake has been placed in the ground by a lot of large companies, because a lot of them actually still have measurement people on staff in their marketing departments. And their primary guideposts are direct sales. I think that within the near future somebody has to come up with some way for us to ensure some measurement feedback to our clients. MIKE ELLERY: It’s a very subjective thing. I think each client has a different way of measuring their own success. The way we’ve approached it is by always trying to understand what that is before we create an event, and then defining and writing back to them, saying, “We understand. You think this event will be successful if we achieve these particular objectives.” And then we have something to actually measure, during the process and after the process, with the research vehicles that we put in place. It’s a very gray area, and every organization’s definition of success is different. And some of these companies have sales cycles that are 18 months long. So it is very difficult. STEVE PASCAL: I think the good thing is that the up-front part is happening—getting involved in the business model and understanding what they do for business. MIKE ELLERY: We were working with a big pharma company on a trade show event. In the middle of the trade show event was a theater experience. To get into the theater, they had to swipe their card. Once we had them in the theater, they saw two presentations. We knew how long they were in there, and we knew how many people had gone through, how long they were in there, how many key messages we delivered. So if we had nine-and-a-half minutes with 4,500 doctors over three days, how much would it cost us in field sales calls to deliver that many messages? So if you want to get down to hard numbers, there are ways to do it. But it depends on what’s going to drive the creative for the booth. Is that what’s going to drive the experience? Is the key goal of this experience to demonstrate ROI? And usually it’s not. Usually it’s a secondary goal. PATRICK GORMAN: Last question: When business comes back full steam, how will it have changed? STEVE PASCAL: I think all the things that we’ve been talking about are how to approach the business smarter and add more value. And that’s another word that is hard to measure: value. But, [one change might be] not taking clients’ budgets for granted. I think it’s really sharpened our game, to elevate the professionalism of our industry and our profession, and [emphasizing] what we have to offer as an industry and our part in the marketing cycle. So I think it is going to make us a lot more frugal and smarter. I don’t see those glory days really coming back any time soon. ERIK ULFERS: I completely agree. I don’t see the glory days coming back in the same sort of way. But I think that our jobs will be to create more accountability to the client. I think that makes it more interesting. I also think the ability to create a consensus path with each independent client really has become more critical. Think about all of these independent programs that we’re all working on—the minute you convince a client to start to look at them as properties that have potential equity, which has to do with all the strategic work, the background, and the frequency of its deployment, that’s where you talk about the value proposition. MIKE ELLERY: We can never go back. We’re going to have to produce things smarter. I’m hoping that the green push will get a lot more play—that it can become a top priority. I think as we move forward, we will just have a few more tricks in our tool box, of how to get the job done and how to spend the money where we need to spend the money.
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